Sweetwater Fishing Forums
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: childersfish on January 11, 2012, 04:29:23 PM
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As you may or may not know Paradise Dam Stocking Association amongst others had been fighting the conservationists to be allowed to stock the dam ( I always found that a bit odd as they have been stocking Mingo crossing for years..it flows into paradise dam) and recently overcame them in court. The upshot of this is they have now been given the go-ahead to stock the impoundment with Barra. Apparently (is it fish talk?) it's design and location is said to be perfect for Barra.
The end product is to have a competition to rival the one held at Monduran dam. To help acheive this the Dam will be going onto the SIP's so you will have to pay to fish it, later.
There is an annual "Catch a Catfish" comp (which we sponsored this year and will from now on) which is quite successful. Not sure of all the prizes, as there are a few, but it is a well run event. if they start stocking now (i think they will) then in two years we could see some Barra in the 60 - 70cm Range. Of course there are Barra there now, but not enough to cause a stir. It's good news as it will attract more visitors which will add to the stocks of Bass and Yellas already there via the extra funds.
Fishing wise I've been chasing Yellas. Firstly at Boondooma (first visit), stuffed that up. More water skiers and jet ski’s than fish and there were no redclaw..boo! Note to self don't go on new years again. Came back to Childers and my son caught his first yella in the local creek! That had us hitting a few local water holes and Lake Gregory (always produces a Bass). Total so far, 1 yella, 3 Silvers, 6 Bass, 30 Gar, 30 Mullet, 6 tandans (cammo ones I call em) and 3 spangled perch.
Lures that worked, Tilson, River2Sea baby Crank, Smak golden child, Jackall crank and some spinnerbaits from Bassman. Biggest catcher of the two weeks or so..Worms!
Here we are sitting on the bank floats bobbing in unison when I get a "down" (highly tech term for float going under water). After a sharp brief battle I'm snagged and the line breaks! Sugar..no extra float..so I tied a piece of stick to the line and started again. After a while my lost float started drifting back to the bank. Should I wait or should I try to grab it. Hmm ask mr patience and he says nope..na na. So I start flicking my makeshift float (worm attached) at the passing float in the water. After several goes I finally drag the stick close to the float.
Thoughts are, drag stick close and flick it into the float to snag it,pull it closer. Plan in place off I go, twitch, twitch and bang the stick takes off. Short fight and one Mullet on the line. That unexpected event turned the tables for us. We started chucking the floats out and slow rolling them in. Any enquiry was met with a twitch and bang we were on. Fish learn fast tho. Two days later and the same trick isn’t working.
To end the story all fish were released and I got my float back.
Happy endings, gotta love em. ;)
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Good to hear you are getting a few mate. Boondooma is a top spot when it's quiet, I also made the mistake of going there at Christmas time a few years ago, never again. That is good news about pardise dam, been a long time coming.
Cheers Andrew
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Thats great news about Paradise.
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Hi fellas, yep good news. The childers area is a great spot to fish, right out to mundubbera and Gayndah. They keep the fresh rivers stocked well up here. The only thing missing was a good Barra dam (although Lenthals has a few). This will mean a 30 minute trip for me. Woodgate one side, burrum the other, lenthals south, Paradise west and Lake gregory 20 minutes away.
If anyone is interested there's a Mango farm come fish farm you can stay at. He has a small boat he lets you use to fish one of his dams for barra/Silvers. It's called Mango Paradise..bed & Barra. Good Cabins and great people. It's an interesting place, I love checking out the fish in the tanks.
Cheers
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As per usual, the public know before Fisheries !!!!
I'm trying to confirm through Rod Cheetham DEEDI Kingaroy....If true (and I have no reason to believe it isn't...) - can I congratulate the Paradise Dam Fish Stocking Committee for the long and unwaivering struggle to get to this point - well done ladies and gents .... a good fight and an excellent victory. Please do not rest on your laurels....if you think Paradise could be something special on the freshwater fishing map of Queensland, please 'take bull by the horns and ride it' for everything it is worth. It really is your baby - do with it as you wish.
Can I also give a 'slap on the back' to Rod Cheetham Fisheries Kingaroy.....Rod has been a very loud and proud (sometimes at his Managing Director's scorn) advocate of the proposed stocking program for Paradise Dam and has persued its passage through the hallways of Primary Industry Building and into the Fisheries Ministers office. Well done Cheeto...
As I said I hope it is true...A very very very good news story......
Cheers
Shaun
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It's true..I have a paper on the wall of the shop saying..Paradise Stocking Association inc.."thanks for supporting catch a catty.. blah blah.. the monies raised from the catch a catty comp will be used to buy fingerlings to stock Paradise Dam. Not to mention having the guys asking me to sponsor it..which is great. The conservationist's had their argument thrown out some months back. They were on TV (win) crying it could be the end of them due to the court costs! I'll check with John and see how they're travelling, they were quite pleased to say the least. I know some local fish breeders were hoping to get into the stocking side of things?
:youbeauty :thanks
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Thanks for the info Childers. Great news on Paradise Dam getting one step closer to some native fish being put back in there. Best case scenario is for the dam to be removed but we know that isn't going to happen, we may as well get a recreational use from the water before it gets used for watering citrus & cane down stream.
Fishfolk. Cheeto is a top bloke, even tho he is a mexican. Passionate, hard working, convictions worn on his sleeve. A credit to his work & worth more money (are his bosses reading this?)
Cheers,
fitz..
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Look.... I am sorry to burst the bubble...It seems the news of stocked fish going in Paradise is slightly premature.
Despite the win in the courts, there is nothing new to report in respect to the proposed stocking program of Paradise Dam - I hope i can confirm something in the near future.......but I am not very good at holding my breath...
Therefore Cheetham should be paid for what he is worth..........I dare not put a figure !!!!
Shaun
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What win in the courts are your referring to? What was the court case concerning? Was it to odo withy the right to stock fish in Paradise ? who took who to court?
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www.envlaw.com.au/paradise.html (http://www.envlaw.com.au/paradise.html)
Heres the link Jim.
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Well seems like someone's got the bull by the tits then, this case had nothing to do with fish stocking - its was to do with the failure of Burnett Water (Qld Govt) to proviode fish passage at the dam 'suitable' for a Federaly listed threatened species (Lungfish)- and despite the court case outcome - its remains a mystery how any but those uterly ignorant of the science (or alternatively with a Government sypathetic agenda) - could ever find that fish passage provided at the dam is 'suitable' - given that when the case went to court only three juvenile lungfish had ever been recorded to move upstream pass the dam and none downstream through provided fishways - there was more money spent by the government defending the case than could of been needed to rectify the problems of the fishway (or avoid them in the first place - total disgrace) I don't know how any fishers with ecological awareness could ever consider the case 'a win' - considering so many of our desired sport fish in Qld also depend on good fish passage and structures that stuff fish passage should be lamented by all that care :thumbdown
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Sorry Jim expected your response, followed this with some interest due the associated hoo ha that occured at NPD (courtesy of "Fisheries Consultant" sic David Kreutz) Found it rather hard to believe that your report was rejected for the reasons stated.
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Yeah thanks Steve, was a pretty frustrating exercise to see how science interacts with the legal process - they resorted to playing the man instead of the ball.... :-\
There were a few funny moments tho;
Like when the Govt Barister made out that I wasn't an expert and then our side pointed out that their firm had egaged me as an expert 15 years ago in an international fisheries case (Ok Tedi)
When the Govt team used exerts from Sweetwater fishing forums I'd posted (can you belive they went to that much trouble to try and find dirt on me) to paint me as contradictory in statements I'd made about Lungfish - without realising they were regard to Mary River populations and in relation to Mary River Cod - not the Burnett River "Now Mr Tait where you say if the arse falls out of recruitment lungfish are stuffed are these your words"
Where they realised that some of my Lungfish expertise (which they were claiming I had none) was in relation to a baseline study I did for the Government on Traveston (which subsequently ended up on the cutting room floor ::))
Still it was challenging to have your reputation smeared through the media - by legal heads that don't understand ecology - the judges basic conclusion was that because I wasn't specifically a 'Lungfish biologist' or a fishway designer I wasn't qualified to comment despite the fact that I've worked for decades in freshwater fish and catchment managment including on threatened species such as Eastern Cod with a similatr suite of issues to lungfish (long lived, low fercundity etc) and have done regional scale assements of fish passage barriers and their implication for fish populations - he didn't get that expertise on fish barriers as opposed to fishways was as much or more relevant in the case of the Paradise Dam impacts :-\
Issues surrounding the stepped spillway at the dam - which most fish use (not by choice) for downstream movement were thrown out as extraneous /not relevant to the case of provision of suitable fish passage - hence the claim that my report overstepped the particulars of the case and could be conviently thrown out - also ythe issue that opinion could not be seperated by fact - my report is on the web for all to see, I indicated whenever statements were 'in my opinion' - elsewise they were based on facts collected by Government agency scientists.
What is telling is to see the agreement between the Government expert and myself - check out the jointy experts report - we agreed on 95% of the presented facts - yet the judgment [placed very little weight ion this report because he discredited my expertise and seemed to belive that some how I had coerced the Government expert into agreeing to the facts I presented to him ??? - Ce la vie - still poops me off when you see the case pop up in a forum for rec fishers as though its us versus them - some don't seem to realise that you can be a conservationist and a fisher - in fact we need to be!! - Nuff bsaid
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Well Jim, Lawyers is Lawyers, they are always going to try and discredit whatever the opposition says. Thats why we refuse to do any testing at work for anything that might remotely have a chance of ending up in court, even though you get paid for the original work, you dont get paid for the court time, and that can be substantial, and then as you found, you just get attacked anyway.
I assume this means the case is ever now, or is it being appealed?.
The original wording of the condition is poor anyway, "suitable for lungfish" does not mean anything, it does not mean they will actually use it, or that it will assist their passage, just that it could. One could argue the evidence of several juvenile lungfish using it is evidence it is suitable for lungfish and they have met the condition. I would also argue that it only requires construction of the fishway to commence when the dam is operational. As I said very poor wording
Should have said something that required free passage for native species to be both provided and observed in practice for the duration of construction and afterwards.
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Sorry bout that (previous post). I was just about to say.. hi everyone as I write I am scanning the paper given to me by the Paradise stocking association. I was given this for sponsoring the catch a catty comp. During our discussion I was told that the guys had been given the approval to stock paradise Dam with Barra and they would get the go ahead end of December 2011.
In a previous post I said I would catch up to the Paradise stocking association and see how they were travelling. I have and they are still waiting to receive the permit. I asked if all was well and had they started to stock yet. I was told "still waiting". I asked if the decision had been changed (obvious question when something stalls) and got this reply;
Quote - "I don’t think they have changed their mind we just have to wait for them to make a decision of when to give it to us.
We will probably be buying fish, but I don’t know from where as that will have to be a decision of the committee when the time comes.
Cheers
John
(end quote)
The previous court battle that was about a fish ladder and lung fish meant no ruling on stocking the dam could be made until that case had been settled. It wasn't a case about stocking in the strictest sense (how could anyone argue that with the many dams already being stocked successfully) but it did stop any developments from occurring.
It's my understanding that there will not be an appeal about the decision made, as it cost the conservationists financially. You may not have seen it in south of the Burnett region but it was on the TV up here.
The thing I find odd about it all is you can catch Barra there now. They have been stocking Mingo crossing for years, it runs into Paradise. Which made a mockery of the "Barra will eat the Lungfish" story that was bouncing around (locally).
Anyway, that's the local angle on this subject. I will attach a copy of the letter I have from Paradise stocking association which states "monies raised will be used to purchase fingerlings to stock Paradise Dam". No mention of Barra in the letter but it was the fish we discussed. IMHO it would be a bit silly making a statement, putting it in writing and gaining money for the event if it's not true! Gaining money by deception I would think. There are many other businesses in the area that Sponsor these events too.
As for me, I’m not trying to be an ITK bloke I’m just passing on what I think is interesting developments that have some Merit.
See if I am pop the letter in here..
Cheers :youbeauty
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I think Shaun (fishfolk) would have a pretty good idea if the Stocking Permit has been issued, and if he says it hasn't we should believe him. I'm sure the "barra eating the lungfish" local story had about as much merit as most of the local stories that get thrown around.
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Paradise Stocking
Association lnc.
To Whom It May Concern
On behalf oft he Paradise Stocking Association Inc. Executive
Committee, I am writing to thank you for the generous sponsorship/donation
given to this organisation for the second "Catch a Ca#y Fishing Competition". The two
days were very successful and great enjoyment was had by all. Monies raised, will be
used to purchase fingerlings to stock the Paradise Dam and hopefully next year will be
bigger and better Thank you for your help.
(name)
Secretary
Sorry couldn't get letter head in. I also withheld the name of the secretary for obvious reasons.
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Dont sweat the permit to much, can take quite a while to get it through, particulary a first one. Took a few months for Ewen Maddock's first one to show up, only about 4 to 6 weeks for the extension to cover the second dam.
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Dont sweat the permit to much, can take quite a while to get it through, particulary a first one. Took a few months for Ewen Maddock's first one to show up, only about 4 to 6 weeks for the extension to cover the second dam.
I rang DEEDI today and they can't tell me anything as to stocking Paradise Dam is a privately owned water (so the girl said). It's owned by Sunwater, whom I rang and they said they'd get back to me. I guess it might be a bit like awoonga which isn't on the SIP System. It has it's own fish Hatchery and is funded by the Gladstone Water Board.
I'll keep digging until I find out some more. I would say is it's coming just a matter of timing, it's all good!
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The acceptence of the Paradise Dam fish stocking management plan and the subsequent permit to stock Paradise dam sits very firmly within DEEDI. Whilst DEEDI takes advice from stakeholders (i.e. Sunwater, DERM, SEQ Water, etc...) the decision sits very much with the Chief Executive DEEDI.
The decision to stock Paradise Dam is one that has divided opinion not only amongst the community, but also with government, and even, within DEEDI. I suggest that the decision is further away than closer... The whole Queensland Stocking Program is under review at the moment and I assume that nothing would even remotely would be forthcoming until that is released (sometime this year) - the group (I thought) were well aware of the lengthy timeframe they had before them....maybe I was wrong !!!
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I think Shaun (fishfolk) would have a pretty good idea if the Stocking Permit has been issued, and if he says it hasn't we should believe him. I'm sure the "barra eating the lungfish" local story had about as much merit as most of the local stories that get thrown around.
Dale on what basis are you so sure that the 'barra eating the lungfish' story has no merit?? Suppose you got some data to back your confidence up? Lungfish have been around 120+ million years and once were spread across the Australian continent - but that was before the advent of modern ray finned fishes - it may be no coincidence that they were historically restricted to the Burnett and Mary River basins when white fellas got here - while the Mary had cod the Burnett was particularly light on for large top order predators - although barra were distributed up the Burnett historical densities were never that high (certainly nothing like what occurs in a stocked impoundment) and bass did not occur there and on most accounts only at relatively low densities in the Mary.
Many 'locals' don't see a problem cause there's s**tloads of lungfish - so why worry about them - but the issue is that most of the fish you see are adults and can be anything up to ~90 years old. Its the young juveniles (and sub adults) that are thin of the ground - and potentially most vulnerable to an artifically high density of stocked large predators. The other problem for the Burnett population is that more than half of their core habitat in the system is now backed up by dams and impoundments - and lungfish require flow associated habitat for successful recruitment. In a situation where up to half their breeding habitat has been stuffed by flow regulation, and connectivity of breding populations buggered by ineffective fish passage - hamering whats left of juvenile recuitment by an artifically high stocked predator population is not particualy prudent conservation management.
Regards barra already being in the system its true, but the densities are low, particularly in the lower reaches of the river which inversely hold the core populations of lungfish.
What rec fishers have got to realise is that ecologically there is no justification for filling up every availble bit of river system/ impoundment with desirable sport fish - as much as we may all enjoy stocked fisheries - sometimes there are other values at stake - certainly in the area concerned it is not as though rec fishers are wanting for access to stocked barra fisheries - monduran, Awonga Leenthalls - at the very least there should be a committment to conduct monitoring studies to see what happens to juvenile and sub adult lungfish when you get high densities of metre plus barra sharing the water with them, if juvenile abundances plumet then stocking should be discontinued - with long lived fish like lungies you'll continue to see apparently good populations of adults long after recuitment has been impacted until one day the oldies die off and then there is no replacement by young fish. -
Alternatively if fish passage was rectified throughout the Burnett River system barra could populate it naturaly - albeit at natural recruitment densities..!
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G'Day Jim. Noting your comments regarding interupted flows from barriers impacting lungfish. From my limited experience I support your comments. I ponder however, with of the barriers on the very heavily regulated Burnett River system there would no doubt be little viable water left for Lungfish, particularly in the many dams/lakes, why not stock other natives to get some alternate use from the water before it all gets used for irrigation?
I've got no doubt that if a little Lungfish swam past a big barra that was hungry, that the lungy would get eaten. Same for a cod, bass or any other predator. But if lungfish don't prefer lake habitat, they're less likely to cross paths with stocked fish.
At days end, we all know barriers across rivers are bad news for rivers, heaven knows I've railed on about the impacts enough. But the dams & weirs are there & dumb old rec anglers aren't going to be able to have them removed. I do very much doubt that stocked fish are high on the list of worst impacts for lungfish. If there were no barriers, we wouldn't need restocking of anything; a pipe dream now, but for lungfish I think some decisive action is required to help them as opposed to just letting them do their own thing in an ever diminishing habitat.
Maybe more Noah's Arks eg the successful translocations to the Brisbane, Pine, Stanley, Coomera rivers perhaps where it is worth noted that the lungfish were able to establish themselves in the presence of middle and apex predator fish species (Bass, Cod, JPs, Bull Sharks, Jacks etc) and still appear to be maintaining populations levels even in the face of high stocking rates of middle & apex predator species AND these rivers being regulated as well. Maybe, just maybe, Lungfish are hardier than what we thought...More research needed in alot of areas I recon.
Cheers
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Bugger, had my hops up there for a while!
If the election gets called, DEEDI, like all govt departments, will hold the line on making decisions on anything contentious until after the election. If as expected there is a change of Govt, DEEDI will be busy restructuring for 6 months or more afterwards, DERM will likely not exist in its current format, so who knows what will happen and how long it will take to settle down. If there is not a change of Government, it will still be a mess as so many Labor pollies are jumping ship this election it will virtually be a new ball game anyway.
While the Paradise Stocking Group are waiting for their permit, they should be using all their chook raffle money to bolster the upstream stocking of Barra by their sister stocking group, which will of course eventually end up down in the dam. Obviously whilst the permits wont be for many fish, being only to stock weirs, they should be ensuring that the max possible are going in.
Its like all these things, I can only take advice with a large grain of salt. The amount spent on research is small, there is little peer review of the research, it is often conducted by groups or persons with preconceived ideas, certainly no funding is made for additional or secondary research to take initial findings and hypothesis to higher levels of confidence.
So despite seeing massive numbers of lungfish in NPD when I fish it, I'm told they dont like dams and wont breed in them, then I am told the stocked fish in dams will eat the juvenile lungfish that are not in the dam because they wont be breeding in there anyway. :o
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Probably been more research done on Lungfish than any other Australian freshwater fish with several projects ongoing.
They do breed in the dams seen millions of fertile eggs (as I am sure other people reading this have) but due to their early stages of development the chances of them surviving would be zero.
In NPD predation of eggs and larvae would be close to total by Redclaw and Tilapia which inhabit the areas where eggs are deposited, the stocked fish most likely would not get a chance to eat them.
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The other problem with lungy recruitment is the relatively long time that the eggs take to hatch. During this time they need to be covered with a certain depth of flowing water and also need a certain type of reeds. With the frequent change of water levels in the dams and weirs what would have been a successful recruitment fails to eventuate.
I fear for the future of the lungies in NPD as with every overflow event more get killed despite the rescue attempts.
Cheers
Ray
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Wonder about the sustainabilty of lungies downstream of the NPD wall, yarned to some fishos on the week end that target them with bait from the weir - didnt exactly seem like they were fully briefed on good CnR practices
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Lungfish of many size classes including subadults do 'like' and utilise dam /lake habitat (including the impounded reaches of the Burnett) - they just don't recruit that successfully in it unless provided with suitable aquatic plant substrates for their eggs and tucker rich aquatic plant margins for their juveniles - in some of the Brisbane region impoundments these breeding substrates have been provided (in the past ) by water hyacinth. In many impoundments the suite of macropytes that develop, steep edged channel profiles, fluctuating water levels associated with water releases all combine to create conditions unsuitable for spawning or juvenile nursery habitat and sustainable recruitment - but as Fitzy says their is much research that needs to be done. I support what Binder says too, if the Burnett boys have existing permits for their upstream weirs continue to stock those - but don't load Patradise up with barra stocking yet until more is understood about the potnetial costs of it - I mean like local vested interests aside are we that short of barra dams in this part of SE Qld?
BTW Fitzy - I agree that we arn't going to take dams away - but there is so much more that can be done in terms of designing effective fish passage if we really get Governments committed to it!