ABT Barra Tournament Boater/Non-Boater Negativity???

[Member]

G'day all,



In the recent years aquiring knowledge and skills as a reacreational Barra angler, I thought I might take a couple of weeks off at years end and enter into the Barra ABT events, hoping to form a team and maybe enter as a non-boater in the now, one chosen event. Never entering into a tournament before I don't know what to expect. The reasoning behind my thoughts to enter was I thought it would be very social and it would be awesome to put some faces to some names and share thoughts and ideas with other like minded Barra anglers.



After browsing the ABT Barra Tournament website, I gathered there was a lot of negativity with possibly regular team competitors with events being held as a boater/non-boater event which would be run just like the Bass and Bream tournaments.



How is the ABT Barra tournament going to attract more competitors and grow especially when these events can be so tough and competitive at the best of times even for the best? Would it even out the playing field if these events were held as boater/non-boater event sharing points between the boater and non-boater. Point stacking to a leading team member would be eliminated then, wouldn't it? Would this attract more competitors? The downfall is though that there may not be many positions for new competitors as non-boaters anyway.



I was just keen to hear your thoughts and ideas on the above matter and if there was any constructive criticism, it would be posted in a respectable manner. With several events cancelled already for the 2011 calender due to a few circumstances, I would hate to see the demise of this event and the loss of sponsors.



Kind regards



Dave

[Member]

Dave,
 Imagine a budding, keen, skilled angler spending a years worth of travel fees on fuel and the like to learn as much as they can- and the angler fine tuning their skills, knowledge and stealth- and are ready to compete at their new found level and axe a win. In jumps a non boater who happens to have far less skills, is noisy on deck, and scares more barra than he catches. The skilled angler who trained and paid the $ to improve is now being punished for that; fishing in variables now out of his control, variables that were able to be controled by 'own partner' selection.
 Many competition barra anglers secretly want that podium finish- they want the gloss that comes with that. This is evident by the way last year's tour was played out and the fact the rule book was opened and microscoped- only to find conflicting material from years previous.
Many team members like to keep their knowledge on board their own boat or in their own circle- rather than share it- why- because really, that's what comps are about. You don't see the Broncos ring up the Roosters and share tactics. Warney never rang Gangully and told him about a new ball grip.
Fishing guides are the teachers in the barra world. They can teach you more than any other. If you want to learn- track a good one down.
Personally, I think this ABT hiccup is based on a conflict of "he who keeps knowledge, keeps on winning, and those that do share, rarely get the recognition for it!"
Some anglers also enjoy the spirit of fishing with a team mate, year in, year out- just for a fun holiday and a few laughs.
If you want serious learning, you won't find it with ABT barra.
On a side note- I've enjoyed working with the Taylor twins for 5 years in a row.  Keeping the system as 'own picked team mate' only has allowed the cream to rise to the top and to see what was possible when like minded heads get together.
Johnny

[Member]

Thanks for your response Johnny, I can totally understand where you are coming from  in regards to the time, money and training that many keen competitive anglers put in for competing at this level and how they probably feel towards sharing information and how they may feel being hard done by.

As for learning, at this stage of my life in regards to fishing, it is more social, taking in and appreciating the surroundings however I know my knowledge would most definitely expand 10 fold if I was to spend time and money on guides, such as yourself which is something I’ll do in time to come, believe me if I could afford to right now, I would, but as you could appreciate being in business for yourself as myself being a contractor, it can be hard to budget, and a constant battle to make ends meet with prioritising money spent on family matters first and secondly keeping the business operating. As I have posted previously the information that yourself and other guides that have posted information on SW is absolutely priceless and I have the utmost respect for, so I apologies if I have upset the apple cart.

Posting this thread was not what I can get out of it in regards to what information I can get or what I could learn from entering into a competition, it was more aimed at looking at the whole Barra competition picture, evening out the field, eliminating point stacking which is possible. If this does happen, which some articles that I’ve read, leaning towards that this does happen, the whole Barra Comp. scene is………….what?

Where do you see the Impoundment Barra scene here in 2 to 5 years in regards to the competitions? Would there be the same faces and names, same amount of competitors, more or less? Johnny in your above post you made a statement, “ I think this ABT hiccup is based on a conflict of "he who keeps knowledge, keeps on winning!" couldn’t be any more from the truth, a bit like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in the economic world. If some information was shared by boaters and non-boaters, competitors alike, it would take the more knowledgeable anglers to another level forcing them to better themselves too and so on.

I’m sure during the NRL season teams would definitely not share tactics, however players every year change teams with new contracts drawn each year, taking with them information which would benefit their abilities to perform, there are representative duties during the season where players quickly share a bond and abilities, techniques and tactics are exposed. Who benefits from this besides the players themselves? The whole game does, it becomes a better spectacle. Not to take anything away from the Taylor twins who have rightfully earned their way to the top and recognised as the boys to beat in the Barra comps. If the same team won year after year like St. George did in the 50’s and 60’s, does the game become exciting to other team supporters from being so monochromatic?

I’m not looking for an argument, very far from it, more just seeing what other angler’s opinions are, from ABT competitors and those who wish to have a go in the Barra comp. scene and the events future.
After reading some more info and posts I’m having second thoughts as I was going to enter just for some fun as a travelling holiday with a mate and it’s sounding a bit too serious for my liking.

Dave

[Member]

Johnny in your above post you made a statement, “ I think this ABT hiccup is based on a conflict of "he who keeps knowledge, keeps on winning!" couldn’t be any more from the truth, a bit like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer in the economic world. If some information was shared by boaters and non-boaters, competitors alike, it would take the more knowledgeable anglers to another level forcing them to better themselves too and so on.

I’m sure during the NRL season teams would definitely not share tactics, however players every year change teams with new contracts drawn each year, taking with them information which would benefit their abilities to perform, there are representative duties during the season where players quickly share a bond and abilities, techniques and tactics are exposed. Who benefits from this besides the players themselves? The whole game does, it becomes a better spectacle. Not to take anything away from the Taylor twins who have rightfully earned their way to the top and recognised as the boys to beat in the Barra comps. If the same team won year after year like St. George did in the 50’s and 60’s, does the game become exciting to other team supporters from being so monochromatic?

Dave, we are on the same page here with a small crossed wire, I agree with you. The keeping of info doesn't help anyone else- that's the point! Aussie barra comp fishing could me miles ahead of where it is today.
 If the info is kept close- no one learns- and those who wanna win can be reluctant to share the hard earned. Maybe it should not be a comp, but a social workshop- that'll help everyone. But it is a comp, that's the hurdle.

[Member]

Dave,
Never thought much of the "stranger in ya boat" setup, or even being in a strangers boat,  even if it is only a social fish.

All valid points raised about skills, secret squirrel techniques, putting in the hard yards etc.

But me being a low end fisho, that wouldn't particularly worry me, I'm more worried about being stuck in a boat with a tosser for  the day! Particularly if it wasn't my boat! (If you were the boater you could always leave a tosser on a mudbank!, if you were the deckie and stuck with a tosser boater, your stuck unless you can swim!)

[Member]

Binder, thanks for the giggle.
That cracked me up.
J

[Member]

Dave, Its a good point mate. It is a commonly accepted format  B/NB in Bass and Bream. To most who havent done ABT tournaments, it would be confusing as to why B/NB is not yet taking off with barra.

There are significant differences between Bass & bream and the Barra tour. I have had the enjoyment of fishing bass as B and NB, whilst also doing the ABT full tour and part tours as a teams event.

Distances are massive in barra vs bream/bass. The lions share of anglers that fish ALL tournaments are based in SEQ with the bass dams and bream venues relatively close..thus NB and boaters can travel easily with minimal $$$. The barra dams are further from the majority of anglers thus $$$$ is a killer. Even for the growing  % of barra anglers that live in NQ...again distances in reverse is an issue. The barra dams are either way north for the southerners, or way south for the northerners!!!

Travel costs are shared with teams. I am all for a one off B/NB in the middle of the tour, as both anglers are already there and the number of entries are even with the tour (team of 2)...now this gets difficult for the person why want to 'try out' as a non boater, because it will then require someone to travel to awoonga solo as a boater..unless he can find someone to travel with who has a boat...chances are they will already be doing it as a team anyway.....does that make sense?

Secondly, and I think this is the major problem (at least that I have)..and its not being 'above or too good for the non boater' is that barra are a difficult beast to deal with compared to bream and bass. In the bream/bass, its pretty easy for a person to hook, fight, navigate and land their own fish solo, or with basic assistance from a NB...you could train a monkey to do it. We all know barra is bloody hard, your NB may have to steer the electric around trees, do all sorts of team type activities (in the dark also..which is another issue in itself) that require a certain level of skill, and more importantly understanding between both team members...its not easy to aquire. I know spud and I can do all that with a bare minimum of conversation, as we know our team stuff from fishing together for ages. Other issues like stealth, anchoring quietly and things can cause issues in a newly formed team. I just picture a top line angler like Jas W, Taylors etc hooking a fish in timber, with a new NB trying to sort out net shots etc..and knocking their winning fish off.....how popular would they be then. At least if its your mate, you can give them a ribbing and get on with life.

I think the idea of 'who shares wins' is excellent, and this is the driving force behind the B/NB concept (although I personally believe its also a hatched plan to seperate the taylors....divide and conquer).....but I sit, listen and talk to a lot of anglers at the pre briefing and at presentations and the majority will share tips and info (I know I do..for what they are worth)....especially at the pub after a few beers, the tips come out. Everyone especially helps newer anglers too. Ask Kyle and Pete how much they have learnt from anglers...without splitting their team.

Essentially, IMHO, the barra tour is a social, yet competitive tour which works great the way it is. plenty of info gets shared in the current format. I know I have learnt stacks watching other competitors from a distance, and sharing a beer after the event. I guess alot of other anglers that do it, have the same thoughts..thus dont like the B/NB extra professionalism attempts to 'improve' the sharing. Others that seek more glory wouldn't be doing themselves any favours by going B/NB in my opinion.

Cheers Steve

[Member]

Grab yourself a deckie & give it a go......... a bit of info is always offered up over a beer at the end of a days fishing .

chris

[Member]

Dave, I've fished in Bream, Bass and Barra ABT rounds in the Boater/Non Boater and Teams formats, and I have some views that quite possibly are mine alone.  Mainly fishing as a boater, I've drawn partners who I would never fish with in a normal days fishing.  Some were great blokes, others not so.  Sadly some non boaters in the early days treated the day as a free guided fishing day.  I had a guy at a Bream comp jump into the boat with a tackle box with 6 lures and a Snapper rod and reel for a full day in Bribie Passage.  He didn't bring any drinks or lunch.  I was expected to supply him with drink and food for the day.  He was pretty dirty all day because he didn't draw one of the name anglers, and when we got back to the ramp he grabbed his tackle box and rod and disappeared.  There was no offer of helping to load the boat.  Another non boater at the end of the day disappeared leaving his gear in the boat.  He turned up at my cabin much later half full asking for his gear.  Other guys I've fished with have been awesome and I've developed long term friendships with them.  I remember a day where I had Quick Draw McGraw as my NB.  I came up to an Oster rack near the Pimpama and told him that I wanted to cast at a particular structure because there were some cormorants sitting above it and asked that he let me have first cast for a change.  By the time I got from the tiller to the bow and got the electric down, he's hooked big bream of the tournament from under the birds.  I now prefer to compete with fish rather than fishermen.  The boater/non boater probably won't work with Barra.  How many day 2 non boaters take their boaters to spots they learnt from their day 1 boater?  I'm sure Cy or Jason would be pretty dirty if they arrived at their spot to find the nb from the day before already there with his new boater.  Originally, the Barra comp was going to be a Teams event.  It changed from that to an individual event during the first round and has remained an individual event.  I'm sure the inexperienced non boaters would love it to be a draw event, but how do you run a comp with 50 boaters and 250 non boaters wanting to fish.  It is a whole lot cheaper to jump in your car,  even car pool with a couple of other nbs and hit the road north than to hook up your boat after having done the bearing and brakes on your trailer, serviced your car for the big trip.  Most people don't realise that accepting fuel money from a non-boater is illegal.  The minute someone gives you fuel money it becomes a commercial transaction and if you are not a qualified guide with a properly insured and registered boat you became laible for all sorts of nasty things.  If a non-boater is hurt, and says he gave the boater $50 fuel money, he could quite easily end up owning his boaters boat, car and possibly his house.  If the non boater is with you at the petrol station and pays for the fuel going into the boat it is a different story and most likely will slip through a loop hole.  These are all things to consider before fishing competitions. 
I was disappointed that the grand final was cancelled this year.  With the fishing so hard it would have really sorted out the gun anglers from the the lucky anglers.

[Member]

I would like to clarify one thing before any incorrect assumptions are made.  While I've found most tournaments are not for me, I know that for many people they are an exciting part of our sport.  I believe that Steve Morgan and Co. have done more for us in many ways than most people realise.  The improvements in Boats, Electronics and Fishing Gear available to us can often be traced back to the tournament scene.  When I started doing tournaments I had a 420 Hornet with a 30 Yammy and a tiller steer leccy on the front.  I then upgraded to a state of the art 435 Hornet with 50 4 stroke, Autopilot bow mount, GPS.  I started using Mono on heavy Threadlines, but I've changed  a lot of my gear since then,  I feel that companies such as Shimano, Daiwa, Clitrex, Skeeter, BLA and many others owe a debt of gratitude to ABT.  Who'd have thought when all this started that we'd now have people using boats for fishing in dams fitted with 200+ hp motors that are comfortable and stable purpose designed fishing machines.
The great thing about our country is you can do what you like, if you want to enter an ABT comp, enter it and give it a shot.  Be careful not to stress over your performance or results, because to me, that is the reason we go fishing.  We want to rid ourselves of the stresses involved in day to day life, not create new stresses.

[Member]

...........and the funny thing is, barra comps are won in a crappity yellow, ( now blue) boat with  more cracks than desert creek beds, a tiller handle 2 stroke banger, and using a ugly rusty anchor with no chain tied to some second hand rope. he he
J

[Member]

Dale, if the fuel money means its a commercial transaction, it probably also means your unlicensed to drive the boat, pretty sure you must have a coxswains ticket to operate a boat for commercial use! Which also means your likely uninsured! (Except in your case you would probably need a master's licence, coxswains are restricted to 250kw  )

[Member]

Andrew you read my mind!

Hey Dale, great post mate, many points you made, makes a lot of scense, especially the 2nd day B/NB comps. exposing locations.

I know many competing anglers would like the glory of being AOY (Angler of the Year) and what comes with it, but wouldn't it have been less controversial and confusing if they just have kept it as Team events? What was the reasoning behind the change?

Dave

[Member]

Don't know the detail but sounds like they didn't want the same guys winning the comps year in year out.  I think it really comes down to the bar being raised and everyone else needing to catch up.  Look at the Aussie Cricket team.  They made the leap forward and for many years they were the top dogs.  Now other countries teams have improved and the Aussie's have come back to the pack(loosing some good players doesn't help either).  If the top performers have got the inside info on How,When,Where and Why then the other blokes have gotta lift their game and learn. 

Initially reading this article I was very interested in this NB option as I have never really thought about taking part in a comp.  Since the Dave's great beginning to this thread I have seen the other side and can see why it might be tough for the B's.  Personally I think anyone going on someone else's boat means they have the shared responsibility of everything that comes with being on the water(fuel, food and shared help when needed).  After all the NB would be on the water if it wasn't for the generous nature of the B.

Having said this, if anyone wants or needs a deckie give me a yell 

Cheers Geoff

[Member]

Thanks Geoff, I was hoping this would be a great discussion topic, and it has been.

There are some great points from both sides. As stated I hadn't a clue on various issues raised but it has definately enlightened the uneducated like myself in regards to the Barra comp scene which I think is great, hearing both sides of the story.

Dave