Sweetwater Fishing Forums
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sweetwater on April 21, 2013, 09:20:42 AM
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Ok, I'll kick off.
Copy and paste the list and add / subtract the impoundments you feel should be on the SIP.
Add any other changed you feel need to be made. I will collate responses and make a submission from the 1400+ members here on Sweetwater
Current
Bill Gunn Dam (Lake Dyer)
Bjelke-Petersen Dam
Boondooma Dam
Borumba Dam
Burdekin Falls Dam
Callide Dam
Cania Dam
Connolly Dam
Cooby Dam
Coolmunda Dam
Cressbrook Dam
Eungella Dam
Fairbairn Dam*
Glenlyon Dam
Gordonbrook Dam
Isis Balancing Storage (Lake Gregory)
Kinchant Dam
Lenthalls Dam
Leslie Dam
Maroon Dam
Moogerah Dam
Lake MacDonald
Lake Monduran (Fred Haigh Dam)
North Pine Dam*
Peter Faust Dam
Somerset Dam
Storm King Dam
Teemburra Dam
Theresa Creek Dam*
Tinaroo Falls Dam
Wivenhoe Dam
Wuruma Dam
*These dams joined SIPS on 2 April 2009.
Add the following established fisheries
Atkinsons Dam
Lake Kurwonbah
Baroon Pocket
Even Maddock Dam
Funds Distribution
- Move surface area cap from max 4000ha to 5000ha.
- Minimum surface area?
- Apply a consistent selection criteria for joining a scheme
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Personally I wouldn't like to see any stocking group lose any funding.
I would keep the current list and also add Baroon Pocket and Ewen Maddock.
Baroon Pocket
Bill Gunn Dam (Lake Dyer)
Bjelke-Petersen Dam
Boondooma Dam
Borumba Dam
Burdekin Falls Dam
Callide Dam
Cania Dam
Connolly Dam
Cooby Dam
Coolmunda Dam
Cressbrook Dam
Eungella Dam
Ewen Maddock Dam
Fairbairn Dam
Glenlyon Dam
Gordonbrook Dam
Isis Balancing Storage (Lake Gregory)
Kinchant Dam
Lenthalls Dam
Leslie Dam
Maroon Dam
Moogerah Dam
Lake MacDonald
Lake Monduran (Fred Haigh Dam)
North Pine Dam
Peter Faust Dam
Somerset Dam
Storm King Dam
Teemburra Dam
Theresa Creek Dam
Tinaroo Falls Dam
Wivenhoe Dam
Wuruma Dam
Thanks Fitz.
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Submission is being done for Kurwongbah.
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Hinze do not know how their stocking group are going as never hear anything and the stocking figures on their website are hopelessly out of date.
Cheers
Ray
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I reckon the system needs to cater for small start up grants, something like - say a grand a year for 2 years for a new impoundment, then if the stocking group is still going and fish are being caught, eligible for full entry.
Minimum facilities (not much, just somewhere to park and launch) and access requirement as well. (No stocking closed waters)
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OK, so the updated list is:
Advancetown Lake (Hinze Dam) ADDED
Atkinsons Dam ADDED
Lake Baroon (Baroon Pocket Dam) - ADDED
Lake Dyer (Bill Gunn Dam)
Lake Barambah (Bjelke-Petersen Dam)
Lake Boondooma
Lake Borumba
Lake Dalrymple (Burdekin Falls Dam)
Callide Dam
Cania Dam
Connolly Dam
Lake Cooby (Cooby Creek Dam)
Coolmunda Dam
Cressbrook Dam
Eungella Dam
Ewen Maddock Dam ADDED
Lake Maraboon (Fairbairn Dam)
Lake Glenlyon (Glenlyon Dam aka Pike Creek Dam)
Gordonbrook Dam
Lake Gregory (Isis Balancing Storage)
Kinchant Dam
Lake Kurwongbah (Sideling Creek Dam) ADDED
Lake Lenthall (Lenthalls Dam)
Leslie Dam
Maroon Dam
Moogerah Dam
Lake MacDonald
Lake Monduran (Fred Haigh Dam)
Lake Samsonvale (North Pine Dam)
Lake Proserpine (Peter Faust Dam)
Lake Somerset
Storm King Dam
Teemburra Dam
Theresa Creek Dam
Lake Tinaroo (Tinaroo Falls Dam)
Lake Wivenhoe
Wuruma Dam
I'll throw it out there... Should:
- Connolly Dam (aka Silverwood Dam) be removed as there virtually no public access, only access is for local fishing club members.
- Gordonbrook Dam be removed as it is almost universally closed by local council? (wasted money that could be used elsewhere)
:?)
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** Remember it is up to the various fish management groups to nominate the lake they stock for inclusion in the SIP. I'm looking for what the general angling community AS WELL AS restocking groups consider appropriate.
Therefore this topic will be moved to general chat.
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PARADISE!
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Have they finally given permit to stock paradise?
Cheers
Ray
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Have they finally given permit to stock paradise?
Cheers
Ray
Not sure Ray... A fair question :tick
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Any idea if Clear Island Waters and Robina Waters would be eligible.
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Paradise is not established so its out. Connolly is almost private water, so it should be dropped. If access to Gordonbrook cannot be maintained it should be dropped.
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Any idea if Clear Island Waters and Robina Lake would be eligible.
should not be considered for SIP
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Any idea if Clear Island Waters and Robina Lake would be eligible.
Depends on 2 things....
1 - an application to join the program from the fish stocking group, and
2- the selection criteria applied.
Based on the past applications, I would say the answer would be no. But as there is no longer a SIP committee OR any transparency in the process, it could well depend on the mood of the letter opener on the day.
Is Robina Lake officially stocked along with Clear Island Waters or tacked on? TP can you help?
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CIW may not be eligible as it has the best functioning fishway in SEQ :popcorn)
Why not Robina Waters impounded freshwater with public access.
Both established fisheries.
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Without a document selection criteria a "declined application" leaves DAFF open to a court challenge or appeal.
The attached PFD is a draft selection criteria I did (some years back) for Fisheries to consider as a start point to apply to prospective impoundments to the SIP scheme.
It has been considered by DAFF staff but no adoption to date.
Anyone want to comment or suggest changes?
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Aren't Robina Lakes and Clear Island Waters interconnected?
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Q12 is no good anymore with the changes to permits. Going to be rare to get 3 (useful) species on a permit in the future. EG Baroon Pocket's new permit is Bass and Cod only, as its no fishing for cod being part of the Mary system, basically its a one species permit.
Dont understand Q4,
To get 12 points out of 7 questions means a lot of "unnecessary stuff" is required. EG, if the dam has no camping, with a new permit only allowing bass, electric only, would be very hard to get up. Wipe out many of the current dams once they roll to the new permits.
I'm not fussed on the fish way bit either, I dont stock dams for conservation, I stock them to catch fish! Joe Blogs who is paying for a permit is also mostly only interested in catching a fish. Perhaps not allowing at risk species might be a better option where there is a fish way. After all its only bass and barra that will find a fish way useful.
(how hard is it to blow up a fish way ;) )
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Q12 is no good anymore with the changes to permits. Going to be rare to get 3 (useful) species on a permit in the future. EG Baroon Pocket's new permit is Bass and Cod only, as its no fishing for cod being part of the Mary system, basically its a one species permit.
Dont understand Q4,
To get 12 points out of 7 questions means a lot of "unnecessary stuff" is required. EG, if the dam has no camping, with a new permit only allowing bass, electric only, would be very hard to get up. Wipe out many of the current dams once they roll to the new permits.
Q4 is a no brainer, if no permit to stock crown waters, can't join the SIP as money can't be spent on restocking.
The document was intended as a suggested starting point as there is currently nothing in existence.
The points thing is to get an idea of the potential need for restocking....as in how much fishing pressure it can probably get & how much it could take to restock it. Those things mentioned, eg what type of access, boating access, facilities all go towards making up the popularity of a lake. Compare Somerset to Wivenhoe & the fishing pressure one gets compared to the other; chalk & cheese. It is also worth considering how the existing SIP lakes funding would be affected if a popular lake, the likes of Somerset or Leslie was to apply to join, how would this affect the funding of existing lakes; a recalculation would be required as part of the consideration. Well I would if I were making the decision...........
Fishway - IMHO if an approved fishway is on the impoundment, the need for REstocking is redundant, this doesn't discount "approved seed stocking" eg MRC, Gar, Saratoga which can form sustaining populations within a lake. Remembering fish stocking should always be the last case scenario.
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Ok makes sense, got to have a stocking permit before you can do anything! I tdidn't twig you meant the normal permit.
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Aren't Robina Lakes and Clear Island Waters interconnected?
No there is a weir between them and another one between it the rustwater at Lake Wonderland.
Robina Waters the actual name, no boats, yak only.
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Submission is being done for Kurwongbah.
Better edit this, trying to do submission for Kurwongbah :popcorn)
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getting resistance, or just buried in paperwork?
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DAFF have been very helpful
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Kurwongbah submission is done, pending the outcome of the SEQ Water Recreation Review for Lake Kurwongbah due to be completed in late 2013.
How is everyone else going ?
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Kurwongbah submission is done, pending the outcome of the SEQ Water Recreation Review for Lake Kurwongbah due to be completed in late 2013.
How is everyone else going ?
Well done Steve. :tick You're ahead of me.... :-[
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Have people seen the letter that the minister is sending out to stocking groups that are not part of the sip scheme. Whilst he says it is not an invite to join the sip scheme he says that even weirs could qualify.
Suggests it could replace funds lost from the old rfep funding.
Be a win for current non sip groups but less funds for current groups unless a hell of a lot on new permits sold.
Cheers
Ray
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Grubs.
Actually I just renewed my permit and actually read it. Then I went and read the old ones back to 2008 I still have, all are more or less the same.
All the arguments I've seen over the years on forums about whether or not you need an SIP for shrimp, for Redclaw etc etc.
Permit says its for taking fresh water fish using either a fishing line or set line. Looks like no one ever reads the actual permit! ;)
Of course my problem now is that if they do add any extra's to the SIP I'll need a new permit, because it also says that permission to fish is for use in any water way as listed in the 1999 Fisheries management plan!
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Have people seen the letter that the minister is sending out to stocking groups that are not part of the sip scheme. Whilst he says it is not an invite to join the sip scheme he says that even weirs could qualify.
Suggests it could replace funds lost from the old rfep funding.
Be a win for current non sip groups but less funds for current groups unless a hell of a lot on new permits sold.
Cheers
Ray
Yes. Have read & responded appropriately. :thumbsup
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Have people seen the letter that the minister is sending out to stocking groups that are not part of the sip scheme. Whilst he says it is not an invite to join the sip scheme he says that even weirs could qualify.
Suggests it could replace funds lost from the old rfep funding.
Be a win for current non sip groups but less funds for current groups unless a hell of a lot on new permits sold.
Cheers
Ray
Being as they retain 20 odd percent of the take, they ripped approx $160k out funding, permits are $37.50, leaves $30 going to stocking groups, that means they need to sell approximately an extra 5500 permits to cover the shortfall.
But given groups whom got RFF funds were generally funded considerably lower for same size waterways as what SIP dams would have got, I'd guestimate you would need to treble those numbers before I'd be sure anyone previously getting SIP funding was not impacted.
Also - Quite a few stocking groups were funded to stock weirs under the RFF. eg - Caboolture were funded for stocking above 3 weirs.
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Grubs.
Actually I just renewed my permit and actually read it. Then I went and read the old ones back to 2008 I still have, all are more or less the same.
All the arguments I've seen over the years on forums about whether or not you need an SIP for shrimp, for Redclaw etc etc.
Permit says its for taking fresh water fish using either a fishing line or set line. Looks like no one ever reads the actual permit! ;)
Of course my problem now is that if they do add any extra's to the SIP I'll need a new permit, because it also says that permission to fish is for use in any water way as listed in the 1999 Fisheries management plan!
Are these the same "Grubs" you would want to include Kurwongbah on the SIP Scheme?
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Am I just paranoid or is this actually the forerunner of a rehash of the whole SIP scheme?
It really puts the existing SIP participants in an awkward situation as they are going to lose a proportion of their funding or be seen to have a dog in the manger attitude.
Has anyone had the time to work out how much funding would go to all groups.
Personally I cannot foresee a large increase in the number of sip permits sold as most anglers already have a sip and the only major dams that may join would be Hinze and Awoonga.
Does the existing formula for funding distribution need to be changed ?
One thing is that the whole thing needs to be enshrined in the legislation to stop sticky fingered governments stealing our funding.
I am also a bit surprised that this has not been published more widely by the different stocking assns for member input.
Not being critical of FFSAQ or stocking assns but the letter from the Minister was sent out on 17th april and FFSAQ forwarded it to the stocking assns on 15th May with a deadline of 30th May when they are meeting the minister.
Very few stocking assns will not even be having a meeting in this window which is very unfortunate considering the importance of this issue.
My verbal diarrhea for the day.
Cheers
Ray
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Awoonga doesn't have a Community Stocking Association, so they would be ineligible. From memory, Gladstone Area Water Board made a promise to the citizens of Gladstone that they would manage this when the dam was built. I doubt the DAFF have included them. I doubt that they'd be a member of FFSAQ so I also doubt that FFSAQ would support them.
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As for your first question Ray, I have always suspected it.
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As for your first question Ray, I have always suspected it.
Dale
When you have been around as long as I have and listened to half truths, broken proposals,I did not really mean that,etc,etc from all sides of the political fence you do tend to become very cynical and always look for the down side of anything proposed by politicians.
Note I use the word proposal rather than promise.
There is only one politician that I have met who when he made a commitment it actually happened the way he promised and that was a hell of a long time ago.Probably in 1970/80s.
Cheers
Ray
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Tell me about it Ray. I received two emails yesterday, one from Council saying it was a State Gvt problem, one from the State MP saying it was a Council problem!
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Are these the same "Grubs" you would want to include Kurwongbah on the SIP Scheme?
If you mean the Pollies, thats who I'm referring to, >:( I have no issue with the survivors in Fisheries.
I dont actually want Kurwongbah on the SIP ;D My opinion is if you cant bung your boat / kayak on it, it shouldn't be on the SIP.
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If you mean the Pollies, thats who I'm referring to, >:( I have no issue with the survivors in Fisheries.
I dont actually want Kurwongbah on the SIP ;D My opinion is if you cant bung your boat / kayak on it, it shouldn't be on the SIP.
I'll second that
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The solution for both the existing SIP impoundments & to get the other dams & weirs on it without ripping out the money is easy.
Simply add crayfishing to the SIP & there's the increased income.
Thoughts??
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I dunno, does anyone actually put in redclaw pots without tossing a line in while they are at it?
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I dunno, does anyone actually put in redclaw pots without tossing a line in while they are at it?
At Somerset, there's ALOT. Then go take a look at cray pots Vs fishing rods at Lake Maraboon. Probably 100 : 1 or more. There's a couple for starters.
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Wow. Bet its just because they are to tight to pay for the permit, No way would I go past a bit of water with a fish in it without tossing in a lure or a shrimp!
Dont get specific about the catch, just include use of traps as well (cover bait and redclaw).
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Here is the draft DAFF "Guidelines for the addition and removal of dams on the Stocked Impoundment Permit Scheme"
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That would almost preclude Kurwongbah.
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Almost but not quite as it stands. established well utilized shore based fishery with access.
Pending the outcome of the SEQ Water recreational review of Kurwongbah ?
"weirs and rivers will not be granted approval for SIPS" :popcorn)
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Almost but not quite as it stands. established well utilized shore based fishery with access.
Pending the outcome of the SEQ Water recreational review of Kurwongbah ?
"weirs and rivers will not be granted approval for SIPS" :popcorn)
"The location must be classified as a dam
(also know as an impoundment). Weirs
and rivers will not be granted approval for
SIPS. A dam is defined as a physical
barrier constructed across a river or
waterway to control the flow of or raise
the level of water. For the purpose of this
assessment a dam will also be defined
as having storage of water greater than
50 hectares in surface area at full supply
level (FSL)."
I read the above to mean a weir can be added.
As in the past, I would again challenge someone to adequately define an impoundment. More specifically the difference between a "dam" and a "weir".
Connelly Dam is only 50ha, but there are weirs that are many times larger in surface area. And then there's "off stream storages" eg Isis Balancing Storage & Lake Dyer.
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Rules will knock poor old Caboolture out of a chance of seeing any money, the three weirs they stock are quite small, so the prospect of more fish in the top of the Stanley above Woodford, Caboolture river or Waraba creek is pretty grim.
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Rules will knock poor old Caboolture out of a chance of seeing any money, the three weirs they stock are quite small, so the prospect of more fish in the top of the Stanley above Woodford, Caboolture river or Waraba creek is pretty grim.
Does the Caboolture group receive financial support from local council? If not, that is an option.
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Stocked Impoundment Permit Scheme not the Stocked Dam Permit Scheme
Weirs and dams both "impound" water.
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Stocked Impoundment Permit Scheme not the Stocked Dam Permit Scheme
Weirs and dams both "impound" water.
Hmmm
im•pound•ment (ɪmˈpaʊnd mənt) also im•pound′age,
n.
1. the act of impounding or the state of being impounded.
2. a confined body of water, as a reservoir.
But, when you look at their definition of the word "take" maybe they have their own dictionary.
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And the minister can also redefine a word such as he has just done with " immediate" which now means " when you feel like it"
Cheers
Ray
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Does the Caboolture group receive financial support from local council? If not, that is an option.
They have in the past, last lot ran out last year (IE they still stocked in January). Not sure what the boys will do, they will probably apply around various places, stock if they get money, wont stock if they dont. Pretty laid back.
Just saying they are an example of a group who wouldn't benefit from an opening up of the scheme under those proposed guidelines..
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Wow, how's this for acknowledgement:
Below is a list of the communication materials that must be edited to include the removal of a
dam:
• Fisheries Queensland website list of dams,
• SSQ online purchase list of dams,
• Permit books list of dams,
• SIPS database,
• SIPS posters and flyers (also destroy old material),
• Queensland Recreational Boating and Fishing Guide,
• Recreational Fishing Size and Bag Limits for Queensland,
• Advise FFSAQ and other interested SIPS stakeholders of the new dam (e.g. Sweetwater
fishing etc.)
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Wow, how's this for acknowledgement:
:youbeauty
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A reminder to everyone that the SIP scheme costs will increase on 1 July 2013.
The new fees will be:
Adult Weekly - $7.70
Adult Yearly - $38.60
Pensioner discount - $ 33.55
With the SIP scheme potentially being watered down with more waterways being added, one possibility to offset this is to remove the pension card discount. After all, those who are retired (not working) can go fishing all day every day; that's a lot of fish that can be caught & eaten.
As mentioned elsewhere, the other way to stop the SIP being diluted is to add cray fishing requires a SIP.
What do you think?
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Honestly I dont know. My gut feeling is they have significantly affected the fingerling industry with the 200 odd K cut in funding.
Judging by NPD's allocation from the SIP (considerably less than last years), I suspect the overall take from the SIP is down considerably this year as well, which will further affect the producers.
If they then have to deliver the fish over a much wider distribution, their costs will be much higher, funding is considerably less, I think we will be seeing 40c a fingering soon.
What I would like to see instead of people thinking we should be paying SEQ Water for access, that if SEQ Water start charging for entry or access universally, that a reasonable amount of that goes back to the people actually making it a desirable recreation spot, EG, The stocking groups putting in the fish people are coming to fish for.
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Pensioner discount to remain. ( Self interest ;D We are already being kicked in the back pocket enough)
Redclaw yes
Everyone over the age of 5 requires a permit.( Maybe ages 5 to 17 at pensioner rates or introduce a family permit at a higher rate.) after all kids have to pay to use public transport or go to the pictures or sporting events.
Cheers
Ray
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$38.60 what can you buy for 38.60 nowadays ? pretty good deal for the fishery you get.
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SWFSA allocation this year was more than last year, you just need people to tick the box. RFEP funding won't affect the hatcheries too much. Affected groups need to stop bitching and start fund raising. $38.60 is nothing, abolish discounts, all people over 16 need a SIP individually, no two for one for couples!
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Affected groups need to stop bitching and start fund raising.
I'm pretty much giving most of my stocking group memberships away, more in life than spending endless weekends selling sausages.
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I'm pretty much giving most of my stocking group memberships away, more in life than spending endless weekends selling sausages.
Lucky everyone didn't think like that before the implementation of the SIP scheme. We wouldn't have a Sweetwater fishery in Queensland.
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In those days we also had progressive and supportive pollys who could see a vision not like now when all they can do is kick us in the guts whilst giving forth with a progressive flow of meaningless bull.
Cheers
Ray
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Pity you weren't a member of SWFSA, you would have met two MPs who were very, very supportive of our group and interested in our vision for the future. Positive attitudes by members encourage positive actions by the pollies. Abuse and insults get squat. If I was a politician I'd probably give up on some of the groups who are more concerned about personal agendas than they are about providing a voluntary community service.
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My thoughts...
-Set in stone criteria that impoundments/waterways need to pass for inclusion in the SIP.
-SIP required for all recreational anglers regardless of fish/crayfish being targeted.
-A requirement that once on the SIP, stocking groups can no longer charge a fee ( be that a boating access fee or the like) on top of the SIP for use of that water way.
-Protection of current SIP funding arrangements/replacement funding if QLD introduces a general fishing licence.
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Pity you weren't a member of SWFSA, you would have met two MPs who were very, very supportive of our group and interested in our vision for the future. Positive attitudes by members encourage positive actions by the pollies. Abuse and insults get squat. If I was a politician I'd probably give up on some of the groups who are more concerned about personal agendas than they are about providing a voluntary community service.
Supportive enough to take away funding? Supportive enough to sack many of the staff that support Sweetwater fish stocking? or did they just gloss over those little issues?
You have a strange idea of what support means. Just because your pocket feels warm doesn't mean your being supported.
Its a joke. The application to have Baroon Pocket added to the SIP is approaching its second anniversary, no response.
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You're confused Binder. As I said, we invited our local MP's to our meeting. They are not employees of a Government department, they are elected officials who want to help their constituents. Your continued attacks on the integrity of all people involved in the Government probably earn you the treatment you receive from them. Polluting Sweetwater with your vitriol does your cause no good either.
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Settle please gents, we're all on the same team.
There's not much we can do about the budget cuts & the fallout from that, however sitting down with state members we can demonstrate the importance of what we do & possibly turn the tables on the hard decisions made.
It's us against all the other interest groups with their hand out.
I'm convinced that this is make or break time for fish restocking groups not on the SIP.
Look at what the Literacy Awards have done, they relied on $100k per annum from state govt, lost it & thought the world was going to end. Then they went out & got alternative funding. They have now put down their best ever awards. It's a MAKE for them, are we going to be a MAKE or BREAK?
$168k for all waterways across Qld was chicken feed. If we play our cards right & present a good case we could end up with 10 times that amount once the books are back in the black (or sooner). Yep the pollies were expecting some flack over cuts & they got it in spades. Now it's time to show them we aren't a bunch of sooks who throw in the towel without their meager handouts. Meetings with state members and mayors is they way forward IMHO.
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The application to have Baroon Pocket added to the SIP is approaching its second anniversary, no response.
And it's going to have a couple more before any funds make it to EMFMI for restocking Lake Baroon. To add any locations we're going to have to go through a legislative change which won't happen until after fisheries review, then any new location will need to be on the SIP for a year before getting any funds at the end of that year.
That's the best it's going to get unfortunately..... Short term I'd be having meetings with the Meleny & Montville Chamber of Commerce, local council, local MLA etc for short term support.
Is there a hydro station on Baroon or power lines across the lake anywhere? If so, whoever the operator is will have community grants programs.
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I am rather disappointed by the remarks denigrating stocking groups being used to push a political agenda.
Some groups are not part of the SIP scheme and also are not fortunate enough to have major corporate identities in their area that they can approach for funding.
If you are fortunate to crack a few spots in the Bunnings Sausage sizzle ballot ( Yes there is a yearly ballot) and you have the numbers of members to put in the time you can raise a few grand a year.
Only problem Bunnings are only in the larger cities and in the smaller country communities you are lucky to get a spot for a pub meat tray raffle that usually only raises around $150 and you wear out your welcome fairly quickly.
Its a big deal if you can scrounge $100 from the local mill otherwise all you can get is a $50 cheque from local IGA.
Letters to local pollys usually only result in platitudes and vague promises.
Definition of vitriol =. Bitterly scathing; caustic:
Bit over the top.
It would appear to me that some people are taking a dog in the manger attitude and saying I am ok we have the finances and political pull to look after ourselves and out particular interests and stiff poo to those less fortunate groups.
Ray Kennedy
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Hi Ray,
I understand your frustration. What is the answer? Give up or keep going? There is other funding via community grants and sponsorships. For the want of writing a letter a couple of years ago, 'basser & I got $5500 from a power company for fish restocking in the Brisbane Valley.
In most areas there's some type of big player other than govt; cotton, mining, forrestry, power generators, dam operator. All are potential investors in community groups and many use community support to offset their impact on envorinment.
When I communicate with pollies, I always try to do it face to face. Letters are a dime a dozen. If you can get a verbal agreement & then followup with a letter it seems to work better.